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### What is the policy of apt in lenny ?

J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at icmail.net]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:56:49 +0530

Hello List,

I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python python-central python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and some other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!! I did not see this in sarge. What is going on ?

I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??

Thanks

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Thomas Adam [thomas.adam22 at gmail.com]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:33:17 +0100

2008/10/5 J.Bakshi <j.bakshi@icmail.net>:

    > Hello List,
    >
    >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and some
    > other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!! I did
    > not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??

That's how dependencies work. Trust apt.

-- Thomas Adam

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J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at icmail.net]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:11:07 +0530

On Sunday 05 Oct 2008 11:03:17 pm Thomas Adam wrote:

    > 2008/10/5 J.Bakshi <j.bakshi@icmail.net>:
    > > Hello List,
    > >
    > >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and
    > > some other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!!
    > > I did not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??
    >
    > That's how dependencies work.  Trust apt.

Thanks Thomas for your response. I am worried about this because in sarge I used to use icewm and there I installed gdeskcal without these huge... dependency. but in lenny gdeskcal is asking for entire gnome plus nautilus, sudo etc.... which is really not required for gdeskcal !!! That's why I am confused about apt in lenny

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David Richardson [dsrich at ieee.org]

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:45:48 -0400

J.Bakshi wrote:

    > Hello List,
    >
    >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and some
    > other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!! I did
    > not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??
    >

Frequently (usually?) the first letter being a 'g' indicates that it is tied in with the Gnome desktop, so I suspect that apt wants to pull that in with its dependencies. The "gtk" (Gnome toolkit) reference is further evidence of this. Yes, that is a lot of packages.

If you were previously using Gnome, or just had it loaded on your system, the python packages would be all you would need to add. As a user of Ubuntu (which is derived from Debian) I end up with those anyway, so my download was much simpler. I didn't even need to download the python stuff, since I have been known to dabble in python in idle moments.

You might want to try another calendar with less baggage if you don't want the Gnome desktop loaded onto your hard drive.

    --
    David Richardson   \   Imagine Whirled Peas
    dsrich@ieee.org     \
    These are my opinions - nobody else wants them.

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Thomas Adam [thomas.adam22 at gmail.com]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:52:44 +0100

2008/10/5 J.Bakshi <j.bakshi@unlimitedmail.org>:

    > Any recommendation about a desktop calender which is lightweight and having
    > features like gdeskcal ?

Doesn't 'adesklets' include one?

-- Thomas Adam

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J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at unlimitedmail.org]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:22:45 +0530

On Sunday 05 Oct 2008 11:15:48 pm David Richardson wrote:

    > J.Bakshi wrote:
    > > Hello List,
    > >
    > >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and
    > > some other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!!
    > > I did not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??
    >
    > Frequently (usually?) the first letter being a 'g' indicates that it
    > is tied in with the Gnome desktop, so I suspect that apt wants to pull
    > that in with its dependencies.   The "gtk" (Gnome toolkit) reference is
    > further evidence of this.  Yes, that is a lot of packages.
    >
    > If you were previously using Gnome, or just had it loaded on your
    > system, the python packages would be all you would need to add.  As a
    > user of Ubuntu (which is derived from Debian) I end up with those
    > anyway, so my download was much simpler.  I didn't even need to download
    > the python stuff, since I have been known to dabble in python in idle
    > moments.
    >
    > You might want to try another calendar with less baggage if you don't
    > want the Gnome desktop loaded onto your hard drive.

Any recommendation about a desktop calender which is lightweight and having features like gdeskcal ?

Thanks

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Thomas Adam [thomas.adam22 at gmail.com]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:54:37 +0100

2008/10/5 David Richardson <dsrich@ieee.org>:

    > Frequently (usually?) the first letter being a 'g' indicates that it
    > is tied in with the Gnome desktop, so I suspect that apt wants to pull
    > that in with its dependencies.   The "gtk" (Gnome toolkit) reference is
    > further evidence of this.  Yes, that is a lot of packages.

This is a bad heurisitic to go by -- use "apt-cache" the way it was intended:

    apt-cache show foo
    apt-cache showpkg foo
    apt-cache rdepends foo

-- Thomas Adam

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J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at unlimitedmail.org]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:31:42 +0530

On Sunday 05 Oct 2008 11:22:44 pm Thomas Adam wrote:

    > 2008/10/5 J.Bakshi <j.bakshi@unlimitedmail.org>:
    > > Any recommendation about a desktop calender which is lightweight and
    > > having features like gdeskcal ?
    >
    > Doesn't 'adesklets' include one?
    >
    > -- Thomas Adam

Just done "apt-cache show adesklets" and found it allows to design applet.

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J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at icmail.net]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:48:44 +0530

On Sunday 05 Oct 2008 11:22:44 pm Thomas Adam wrote:

    > 2008/10/5 J.Bakshi <j.bakshi@unlimitedmail.org>:
    > > Any recommendation about a desktop calender which is lightweight and
    > > having features like gdeskcal ?
    >
    > Doesn't 'adesklets' include one?
    >
    > -- Thomas Adam

Thomas, I have done some more search and found some very interesting application at the home page.

Thanks

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Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:02:36 -0700

Quoting J.Bakshi (j.bakshi@icmail.net):

    >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and some
    > other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!! I did
    > not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??

Sounds like a classic case of GNOME disease. In this case, it might be a cascading series of dependencies from python-gtk2 -- or you might have inadvertantly left your system, prior to that request, in a state where it had already been trying to fetch GNOME packages for reasons unrelated to gdeskcal and is now trying to catch up.

You might try "apt-get -f install" aka "apt-get --fix-broken install" first, before attempting to install gdeskcal, to see if the latter situation applies. If it does, and you don't want all that GNOME baggage, you might need to find the culprit using deborphan and debfoster. (One or both of them is said to be officially deprecated in favour of something-or-other in the bloated aptitude tool, but I personally prefer deborphan and debfoster.)

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Kapil Hari Paranjape [kapil at imsc.res.in]

Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:57:23 +0530

Hello,

On Sun, 05 Oct 2008, J.Bakshi wrote:

    >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and some
    > other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!! I did
    > not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??

The policy which has changed with lenny is that "Recommended" packages are installed by apt unless the user specifically turns this feature off.

So, if you want to install "gdeskcal" without the packages that the maintainer "Recommend"s then you might want to turn off this feature.

If you feel that "gdeskcal" functions just as well without these recommended packages (in this case "gdesklets" which pulls in other GNOME stuff) then file a bug agains the package asking that the "Recommends" be downgraded to a "Suggests".

Regards,

Kapil. --

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Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:00:07 -0700

uoting Kapil Hari Paranjape (kapil@imsc.res.in):

    > The policy which has changed with lenny is that "Recommended" packages
    > are installed by apt unless the user specifically turns this feature
    > off.

Aha. Well, that's mildly evil. One of several reasons I've always preferred the apt-get tool over aptitude is that (until now) it has defaulted to not autoinstalling "Recommends" dependencies.

If I'd wanted a bloated system, I'd have installed GNOME in the first place. ;->

So, J.Bakshi, one wants to add:

    APT
    {
            Install-Recommends "false";
            Install-Suggests "false";
    };

...to /etc/apt/apt.conf . Problem solved.

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Kapil Hari Paranjape [kapil at imsc.res.in]

Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:02:29 +0530

Hello,

On Sun, 05 Oct 2008, Rick Moen wrote:

    > uoting Kapil Hari Paranjape (kapil@imsc.res.in):
    >
    > > The policy which has changed with lenny is that "Recommended" packages
    > > are installed by apt unless the user specifically turns this feature
    > > off.
    >
    > Aha.  Well, that's mildly evil.  One of several reasons I've always
    > preferred the apt-get tool over aptitude is that (until now) it has
    > defaulted to not autoinstalling "Recommends" dependencies.

I suppose that Debian wanted to differentiate "Recommends" and "Suggests".

    > If I'd wanted a bloated system, I'd have installed GNOME in the first
    > place.  ;->

I don't know precisely what "gdeskcal" does over and above being a calendar but I use "wyrd" which does not even require X.

Re GNOME: I think "someone" needs to take time off and design a GUI that emphasises the "U as in usage" aspect and ignores the "I as in eye-candy" aspect. (The usual rule about three fingers pointing back applies when I am pointing at "someone"!)

Regards,

Kapil. --

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Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:13:33 -0400

On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 10:56:49PM +0530, J.Bakshi wrote:

    > Hello List,
    >
    >  I have tried to install the gdeskcal with its dependency "python
    > python-central   python-gtk2 python-numeric python-xml" in lenny and In
    > return apt asking to install 170 packages with gnome gnome desktop and some
    > other tools which really don't have any connection with gdeskcal !!! I did
    > not see this in sarge. What is going on ?
    > I like to install gdeskcal with icewm. Why 170 pacakes ??

Connecting this with the next message you sent to the list illustrates why:

    Dear list,

    I don't need kdm to run as a service because most of the time I access this
    linux box remotely. Only when I am at home then I need the desktop. That's
    why I have disabled the kdm.

You're running KDE [1], and you're trying to load a GNOME applet. In essence, you're telling Debian "I want you to replace KDE with GNOME, or at least load all of GNOME - since that's what it takes to run the applet - onto my system."

So the answer is, it's doing what you asked it to. I also have a strong suspicion that few of those 170 packages are 'Recommends'; GNOME just drags a long, long tail behind it.

[1] It's not really necessary to point out that 'kdm' can be used to launch WMs other than KDE; in practice, one strongly implies the other.

    --
    * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *

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J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at icmail.net]

Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:50:59 +0530

On Monday 06 Oct 2008 7:30:07 am Rick Moen wrote:

    > uoting Kapil Hari Paranjape (kapil@imsc.res.in):
    > > The policy which has changed with lenny is that "Recommended" packages
    > > are installed by apt unless the user specifically turns this feature
    > > off.
    >
    > Aha.  Well, that's mildly evil.  One of several reasons I've always
    > preferred the apt-get tool over aptitude is that (until now) it has
    > defaulted to not autoinstalling "Recommends" dependencies.
    >
    > If I'd wanted a bloated system, I'd have installed GNOME in the first
    > place.  ;->
    >
    > So, J.Bakshi, one wants to add:
    >
    > APT
    > {
    >         Install-Recommends "false";
    >         Install-Suggests "false";
    > };
    >
    > ...to /etc/apt/apt.conf .  Problem solved.

Thank You.. Thank You... thank You ..........

Rick you have saved me from having a bloated system. Your assumption is correct. I placed the configuration and then try to install gdeskcal and it accurately picks the required pacages only.

    apt-get install gdeskcal
    Reading package lists... Done
    Building dependency tree
    Reading state information... Done
    The following extra packages will be installed:
      python-xml
    Suggested packages:
      python-xml-doc python-xml-dbg
    Recommended packages:
      gdesklets
    The following NEW packages will be installed:
      gdeskcal python-xml
    0 upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
    Need to get 640kB of archives.
    After this operation, 3912kB of additional disk space will be used.
    Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
    Get:1 http://ftp.de.debian.org lenny/main python-xml 0.8.4-10.1 [458kB]
    Get:2 http://ftp.de.debian.org lenny/main gdeskcal 0.57.1-2 [181kB]
    Fetched 640kB in 46s (13.7kB/s)
    Selecting previously deselected package python-xml.
    (Reading database ... 56139 files and directories currently installed.)
    Unpacking python-xml (from .../python-xml_0.8.4-10.1_i386.deb) ...
    Selecting previously deselected package gdeskcal.
    Unpacking gdeskcal (from .../gdeskcal_0.57.1-2_all.deb) ...
    Processing triggers for man-db ...
    Processing triggers for menu ...
    Setting up python-xml (0.8.4-10.1) ...
    Setting up gdeskcal (0.57.1-2) ...
    Processing triggers for menu ...

Also thanks a lot to make my apt behaves as the old one which only install the required packages and that is the reason I like apt so much. Thanks to all of you for your hints, help and being with me to solve it. I am so happy to get back my old apt.

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Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:36:09 -0700

Quoting J.Bakshi (j.bakshi@icmail.net):

    > Thank You.. Thank You... thank You ..........
    >
    > Rick you have saved me from having a bloated system.

Although you're very welcome, the major thanks really should go to Kapil. He provided the key answer; I just looked up how to override that particular system behaviour.

    --
    Cheers,                                     The Viking's Reminder:
    Rick Moen                                   Pillage first, then burn.
    rick@linuxmafia.com

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J.Bakshi [j.bakshi at icmail.net]

Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:19:09 +0530

On Monday 06 Oct 2008 11:06:09 am Rick Moen wrote:

    > Quoting J.Bakshi (j.bakshi@icmail.net):
    > > Thank You.. Thank You... thank You ..........
    > >
    > > Rick you have saved me from having a bloated system.
    >
    > Although you're very welcome, the major thanks really should go to
    > Kapil.  He provided the key answer; I just looked up how to override
    > that particular system behaviour.

I admit. I was so excited that I have forgotten Kapil has provide the exact key. I am extremely sorry for overlooking this fact and I may be permitted to say sorry to Kapil for overlooking his effort.

Kapil million of thanks to you

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